Interview 2 – English- Winter 2008- Walter Ogris – Emil Stejnar
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Walter Ogris Conducts a Personal Interview with Emil Stejnar
The following are excerpts from an interview with Emil Stejnar winter 2008
Archive of Hermetic Texts
(translatet by Eva and Bill Cranstoun)
© Walter Ogris
Ogris: Something sensational has happened. Your books are now available in bookstores. Everyone can now order your books on the internet whereas until recently they were only accessible to a small chosen circle of friends. Why have you changed your mind on this?
Stejnar: Actually a charlatan is to blame for this. He had copied 25 pages, “The Ritual of the Hermetic Four” from my fifth volume in the series The Books of the Master, and had then published it in a completely different context. The author, who is wholly untrained in Hermetic Science apologized, explaining that he had believed that the text came from Dr Franz Sättler. The publisher responsible for this nonsense book stopped sales immediately after notice from my lawyer. But a large number of copies were already in stores. That Divine Providence allowed this profanation shows that the time for keeping secrets is passed. Its not only my opinion, but the whole world has changed. The material world as well as the subtle world are in the process of radical change. And these changes are only the first of the beginning of a transformation of the whole spiritual structure that we are embedded in. About five hundred years ago Martin Luther tried to reform a degenerated religion and he failed miserably. Then came the so called Age of Enlightenment. Spiritually opened minded people wanted to reign in the power of the church and of superstition. But that also had not worked. The influence of religious fanatics is bigger today than ever before. Islamic fundamentalists, Orthodox evangelists, and pseudo esoteric sects are still dumbing down humanity, influencing politics and making the world insecure. The baby has been thrown out with the bathwater, the spirit thrown out with the clerics. Science and technology have not been able to make mankind content in its need to believe in higher powers. The hope for a better world in the beyond and questions about the meaning of life are still with us. And unfortunately also the conflict between religions is still a factor which is really not a fight between religions but between the world view, the time spirit, of the middle ages and and that of modern times. We need a new Age of Enlightenment.
Ogris: And you believe that a magical world view can solve the problem? That it could trigger a cultural revolution of faith?
Stejnar: Not only science but also esotericism has developed. Out of simple forms of belief we now have the knowledge of working with the spirit. Enlightenment concerns itself not with faith in God and in invisible spirits but with research into the spirit that lives in every human, the spirit that says of itself “I Am.” Modern esotericism examines the spirit in a way similar to the way science examines physical forces, as recognizable only in their effects. None of our scientists are able to explain what matter is and in spite of that we have mastered a large part of the material world. We know about the energies within matter, electricity, magnetism, and atomic power and we work with them. We use the effects of the substances around us in an exact way but we don’t know the origins of the world and what holds it together It is exactly the same with the spirit. We know nothing of the spirit either, but in spite of that, the spirit determines our existence. We are spirit and embedded in a spiritual world of which we continually sense certain effects, but most of us are totally unaware of this. We are moved by feelings, hold true what we believe, and fight with our will against invisible forces that lead us to binge, smoke and drink, that appear to be a part of ourselves. Even though one knows it is caused by hormones, messenger substances and electrical activities of the brain cells and the synapses, it doesn’t explain how one, meaning the spirit with its creative power, faith, and capacity for imagination, can do the same thing. That has been scientifically proven. Think about the excretion of hormones with certain thoughts or the placebo effect, or the control of prosthetic limbs with thoughts. There are fully paralyzed people
who can move a cursor around a monitor with their thoughts. Magic-mysticism is the science of working with the spirit. What religion has not been able to accomplish over thousands of years can be accomplished with esotericism. The ideas of faith and dogmas of the religions have not made the world a better place, just the opposite, they have only brought us wars. The character of the individual has not improved thereby. Esoteric, and I don’t mean the pseudo-esoteric that our gurus are spreading, but the Magic and Mystic of the Third Millennium, which I describe in my ten volumes, is a science that in fact teaches responsibility for oneself. This paradigm which follows the way Franz Bardon describes, promises, not only that consciousness without a body is possible, but also shows ways to experience it already during one’s lifetime. And it makes it clear that the quality of life in a state without a body is dependent on personal character.
Ogris: How so?
Stejnar: Now think about it, what part of you can survive death. Which part of you is immaterial? What is the spirit that carries your consciousness? Take everything away from you that is material. What do you have left? What is left of a human being when he dies?
Ogris: Thoughts, feelings and possibly also some desires, so our inner world is left of us. And also naturally our will and power of imagination with which we can control our thinking, feeling and cravings. But who is able to do that?
Stejnar: Right. We know that from experiences outside the body that it is not so easy. What is left over of us after death is at best is a state of consciousness that corresponds to the world of dreams. As soon as we loose the consciousness of the body, our inner world becomes our outer world. Our research has shown that in a bodiless state we meet in fact, similar to the world of dreams, our ideas, feelings and inner desires as an environment in the form of landscapes and beings. Egoistic desires can manifest in our personal “soul garden” in the in between realm to the spiritual plane, as dark threatening opposing powers, whereas empathy can manifest as friends and helping lights forms. Your character determines your Being after death.
Ogris: Now I understand what you mean. When what is normally experienced as an inner world appears in a bodiless state as an outer world, then it is not unimportant which thoughts and feelings one cultivates. The elements of a lousy character will be met by a lousy environment. The social values of our ideals: Truth, righteousness, and compassion are therefore qualities of our personal spiritual structure which also determine our own condition. With that, virtue, morality and spiritual schooling receive new meaning. Its not about being good, or pleasing to God, but to form ourselves into a new being so that we can employ our spirit correctly. If the thoughts and feelings are the molecules of the spirit, then we must control these if we want to use our spiritual limbs. So you want to replace religion with esotericism?
Stejnar: No just the opposite. Whoever needs to use religion as a crutch is not ready for the independent work with the spirit. But I will show that every religion has its esoteric side. The Jews have their Quabbalah, the Muslims have their Sufis, and also Christianity has its esoteric, I describe
this hidden magic and mysticism in my book “Exerzitien für Freimaurer.”(Exercises of the Freemasons). What the Freemasons expressed as the four elements is symbolized in the Christian cross. The four beams on which the divine spirit is fastened, are for the human spirit the four
tendencies of his thinking, feeling, willing and being, that pull him in different directions and hold him imprisoned in one sided opinions, feelings, greed and habits, unless he controls them from his spiritual center. Christ is for a Christian esoteric student a symbol for the true I, the true self, that awakes as soon as he becomes conscious of his own spiritual being. The spirit at first feels helpless- like a child in a manger between the animals (the desires of the body and primitive egoistic impulses), against which he must assert his authority. This self discovery of the spirit is only possible through the four elements, through a human incarnation in which the four tendencies are joined to form a new unity. That is the secret message of the birth in the manger, the death on the cross and the resurrection. The Jesuits taught a focused magical, mystical schooling of the spirit that wholly follows the rules of the Hermetic tradition. You find there next to a hard schooling of the will, concentration and imagination
exercises for all of the senses – just like Bardon also describes. Also God had actually taught Moses these exercises for awakening. As he asked his God for his name, God said “I Am the I Am.” And Christ reprimanded the Apostle Peter because he had fallen asleep and had forgotten him. Now you know right, how often during the day we fall asleep and forget our inner Christ, one could also say boss to that, so one forgets that one is a spiritual being within a body. In the idea I Am one will awaken and overcome death. The Jesuits were familiar with this Mystery that everyone carries within themselves and they knew the Magic of Thinking.
Ogris: No wonder then that this order was so successful.
Stejnar: Earlier yes. Now it is different. No one does the exercises anymore that were prescribed. It is the same with the Bardon readers. Or do you know some who really do the exercises?
Ogris: Certainly. At least for a while or now and then. You yourself are against practicing fanatically. But I also know people who ask themselves what purpose the schooling of the spirit actually serves. The latest findings of neurology and brain research compare humans to remote control machines. The whole character, the predispositions,characteristics, and faculties are in the opinion of the neuroscientists, genetically determined. Morality is fixed in a certain region of the brain. If it doesn’t function or is not there, then supposedly the ability to make moral judgments of behavior is missing.
Stejnar: That could be. If an auto is missing a steering wheel or the brakes it can’t be steered or stopped. But the proper mechanism can be installed and this can also be done in the brain. Neurological processes can also willingly be activated and navigated through thinking. The Magic and Mystic of the third millennium knows about the material self regulating mechanism of nature, but also about the levers with which, one as a spiritual being can take control.
Ogris: If we want it.
Stejnar: If we want it. But that is the condition for every schooling of the spirit that we want more than what is assigned to us. That one wants to know more, wants to be able to do more, wants to gain more than is apparently possible. That one is prepared to undertake more, than what comes easily. The school of the spirit is an elite school for people, who are not content to be dominated like animals are directed by their body and its needs. One can purposefully develop certain aptitudes and work against characteristics that are not wanted. The root of violence, morality and decision making are neurobiologically determined that is clear, since we live in the material plane, but in spite of the influence of the brain, hormones and astrology, that also plays a roll, every consciously acting human being has the freedom to do something or to refrain from acting. You can say yes if your inner impulses urge you to think something, or desire something or to do something, or you can say no and refrain from that action.
Ogris: The authority, that is able to say yes or no to something seems to be missing in most people.
Stejnar: This must become awakened. That happens normally with an initiation or in that one makes oneself aware of its existence and at the same time identifies with it. It is also possible to purposefully program a certain area of the brain that corresponds with the idea “I Am.” You basically install yourself which is at the same time a spiritual event. Because with the imagination ”I Am” an elemental will be created which is the only elemental in fact that can carry and maintain self consciousness. This event, through which one becomes conscious that one is, and that one is more than the body, more than the thinking, feeling and emotions, equals an awakening. Whoever observes themselves in their thinking, feeling and willing and recognizes himself the observer, awakens. He recognizes himself and knows I am not my thoughts, wishes, desires and impulses, these are only my limbs and cells of my being, I am that I am, and I am in the position of being in conscious command of the cells of my being.
Now it is possible to make a personal decision independently of genes, astrological influences, or other uncontrollable firings of neurons in certain areas of the brain.
Ogris: Now we are again with your favorite theme, the awakening. But aren’t all ideas, feelings and emotions carriers of consciousness, personal elements of being that carry consciousness?
Stejnar: Certainly, your thoughts and feelings are a part of you or more accurately stated a part of your spirit. Without them you would lose consciousness, and fall into an subconscious “trance.” But, they are not you. Or, you can identify with the cream pastry, with the cigarette, the rage in your belly, or with the next trip to foreign lands, only because you have been occupied with the corresponding idea over time therefore give life to theses things. To be more exact these ideas don’t keep you alive, but sustain themselves. Even the highest ideals and ideas of faith that fill your spirit serve themselves, and the ideas that they express, ie. the spirit behind them. The only idea, behind which your own spirit stands is the thought “I Am.” The idea “I am” is the only elemental with which you can truly identify. Only the thought ”I Am” truly expresses that you are, and is in fact a part of you. The more often you bring this “I Am” elemental into your consciousness the stronger it becomes, and supports the spirit
through which you can be supported.
Ogris: That means the exercise of being awake is more important than all the other exercises that Bardon describes.
Stejnar: Yes, at least in the beginning. But the other exercises naturally are of equal importance. The equilibrium of the elements should always be upheld. The schooling of the will has only to do with the inner fire and is by the way not only important on the plane of consciousness in the form of being awake, but is also of importance on the mental plane in the form of concentration and imagination and on the astral plane in the form of self control. A powerful spirit can not develop without these faculties. But without wakefulness the other faculties have little meaning. That is what I mean. It doesn’t lead anywhere if you live like an ascetic, meditate everyday, and do all sorts of practices, but in everyday life are rushing around yoked by your duties, and are lead by your habits like a stressed zombie. The work with the spirit begins with positive thinking with which we can purposefully create the future, and in the conscious completion of life’s tasks as they present themselves, whereby the power of the spirit is put on trial in the mastering of everyday problems and relationships around us. Whoever manages to stay wakeful and calm is already half an adept. I haven’t forgotten about the inquiry about the pentagram ritual that supposedly Bardon has not described. I will write that down for you, because there is something important to say in regard to it. The one concerned should in the meantime meditate on the theme of a pyramid.
Ogris: Why do you still not have an Internet connection or your own homepage? Otherwise, you are so modern and open minded.
Stejnar: Probably it is my need for quiet and distance. I also have no cell phone and am only reachable to a small circle of friends. In any case, you keep me informed, that’s enough for now. Here ends the interview.
In addition here are some replies in regard to questions about phenomena coming up in meditation.
They fit here nicely and possibly interest other practitioners.
The following are my thoughts to the phenomenon that Mrs. H. occasionally experiences.You can forward this letter on to her. It probably it has to do with effects of incorrect meditation methods. Now and again I get such letters and one can see how important the books of Franz Bardon are.
All phenomena that appear during, after or in context of spiritual exercises that are not wished for, show that the subtle body has not been brought under control. All feelings and sensations that appear of themselves without control, even if of a pleasant nature are soul, elemental essences and fill the place of consciousness against the will. So it makes no difference whether these are pleasant or disturbing experiences. Just as Mrs. H. experiences a comfortable feeling and harmonious subtle vibration she might soon be experiencing obtrusive, uncomfortable electrical sensations that won’t go away. Next there appear usually obsessive ideas, fears and disturbances of the psyche. Bardon urgently warned us about these accompanying manifestations that appear through one sided or nonsensical spiritual practices that cause the loss of mental balance. Energies that one senses are never positive. Only those energies are positive which are purposefully activated by oneself and are then
converted in spiritual, soul or physical work. It doesn’t make a difference whether a thought, feeling or sensation in the form of “energy” is imposed
upon us. Images and visions that one has not called up in oneself, we call hallucinations and the one concerned is considered crazy. Uncontrolled feelings and emotions we call hysteria. Unexplainable bodily sensations mean also a disturbance in consciousness and should be treated.
Bardon states in his instructions very clearly that every quality that one works with is balanced with the opposite quality and every created imagination that is imagined is dissolved before the exercise is brought to an end. If one meditates for example on the air element in which the qualities of warm, bright, flowing, relaxed, moving etc. visualized, then one must call up in consciousness, the complimentary qualities of the earth element. That is true for all forms of meditations and especially for the type of meditation without a specific content. Meditation places relaxation as a condition of success and is therefore a one sided exercise. The opposite of meditation is concentration. Both must be practiced to an equal degree, which is what most esoteric practitioners don’t do. Most sit down, relax, and think of nothing or devote themselves to their thoughts, which means nothing other than that they open themselves and lose control over their spirit. It is also not useful if one “meditates” on an idea or concentrates on a mantra which as a rule one usually doesn’t understand, as in TM. Every meditation causes a state of consciousness which weakens the I if it is not already firmly established. Improper meditation always has consequences. Obtrusive images, repressed feelings and renounced bodily needs, without the one concerned noticing it, gain power and can appear in other mental layers, becoming noticeable for example as sensations of energy or the opposite as immobility or tiredness. Even a positive sensation like the relaxed lightness that arises in meditation can condense itself into a shadow being, a complex that becomes independent and then fills our consciousness, in the form of an
uncalled for happy feeling or delusion of enlightenment. Even if these are one’s own soul elements, it becomes a form of possession, that can weaken consciousness. What can one do against this? The best is to cease with every form of magic and mystic exercise. The performing of daily duties in everyday life offers enough possibilities for conscious spirit and soul schooling. Whoever wants to add meditation to that should keep to the instructions given by Bardon and instead of insensible meditation practices, practice the exercises from step one and step two and the techniques of transforming the primal elemental qualities described in my books. However the most important is that every exercise, every meditation, every meditative relaxation and opening must be started and brought to a close in a state of wakefulness with the concentration on the idea and image of “I Am”.
There is more to read from this conversation with Emil Stejnar in his book Franz Bardon, Who Was He, What did He Teach, Where does his Path Lead? ( So far untranslated)